Rent Succession in Westchester

[WestchesterRenter5]

Hello! I am trying to gather info on what to do with a rent stabilized apartment in westchester that is occupied by my girlfriend with her grandmother who has lived there since the 60’s.

To keep a long story very short her grandmother passed away earlier this week.
My girlfriend has been living there since August 2019.

Now the lease expires in the next few months, we received the rent renewal and before passing her grandmother signed it and we sent it to the management agency via certified mail. They have yet to receive the letter (nobody was there to sign and it is now sitting at the post office and has been for over a week). They do not seem very inclined to collect their certified mail from the post office as this has happened before and the letter is still sitting at the post office to this day.

Now we are in a predicament, I live with her in this apartment aswell as her grandmother but I have not been here long enough to claim succession nor am I a primary family member.


So the issue is how to succeed this lease. We have talked to the dhcr, they confirmed this is a rent stabilized apartment and that my girlfriend is eligible for succession. However the agent on the phone said that we need to be prepared to play a game of tennis where we will be going back and forth a lot.

They stated that with the next rent check we include a letter stating grandma has passed away and moving forward my girlfriend will be paying the rent and paining her succession rights to the apartment.

However, my questions are:
1. Is this something we should do on our own? Or should we get a lawyer involved?
2. What is the actual process of rent succession like?
3. If you have experience with this what is required and or what is requested as proof?

Now my girlfriend has been told by the management agency that she has no right to the lease before and that they do not want someone her age becoming the tenant in the apartment at this price point. However the dhcr says she is completely eligible and that she is able to succeed at this current rent.

Another potential issue I see is that since the original lease is from the 60’s we do not have a copy of the lease, all we have are some of the more recent renewals.

Please if you have any advice it is greatly appreciated and I will listen to and appreciate any comments you guys make.

[TenantNet]

Westchester is under a rent stab system that is very similar to NYC's version, but there are differences, so we don't want to lead you too far astray.

First, your GF does something; you don't You have no rights to succession as you are not a family member. There are exceptions for non-traditional families, but I don't think that applies here.

Go here first: https://hcr.ny.gov/succession
https://hcr.ny.gov/system/files/documen ... 1-2019.pdf

Usually a person must live in the unit for two year prior to the prime tenant's departure or death.

We usually advise tenants to get their ducks in order if they expect the prime tenant to die or leave. Sounds morbid, but it's smart.

Get a sense if the LL will oppose this, and how strongly. I suspect they will.

Are the parents in the picture? What do they know about life in the apartment back in the 60's and 70's? See rent control issue at the end of this post.

I would consult with a tenant attorney in your area, who knows the differences in the Westchester RS. I would consider filing this form - some do it prior to a person's passing, and it makes the case stronger. But check with an attorney first.

https://hcr.ny.gov/system/files/documen ... llable.pdf

Why a lawyer? Yes they can be expensive, but getting the right representation can save you years of litigation. It can let the LL know you are serious, and can make the difference in getting the unit in your GF's name. This is not the time to be cheap.

There are several tenant lawyers that advertise on this site, but a) you have to ask to see how well they know Westchester law or practice up there, and b) no, we don't get a kickback if you hire any of them. We don't even know if a tenant hires any of them unless the tenant tells us.

As to the lease, you have copies of the receipt for the fee to send the letter, yes? Go to USPS and track the letter, Print the page to a PDF. Keep documents of everything, including envelopes with postmarks. Send everything certified or certificate of mailing. Regular certified with return receipt requested is better. I would have any contact with the LL in writing, not in person or by phone. If there are phone conversations, you can record them (that's legal in NYS), but getting any recordings into evidence is a different issue.

So yes, the could be a long process, depending on the LL.

"They [DHCR] stated that with the next rent check we include a letter stating grandma has passed away and moving forward my girlfriend will be paying the rent and paining her succession rights to the apartment."

Check with a lawyer before you do this. It might be OK, but get advice from someone who represents the GF. DHCR does not represent the GF or her interests.

Indeed, there might some situations where withholding the rent at this point might make sense ... usually having to do with their giving the GF a lease in her name, or if there are estate issues. Consider side issues like SCRIE and ERAP.

The GF and her family should get the grandma's estate in order - is there an executor? a will? Do you need to go through probate in Surrogate's court?

She should contact an attorney that handles estate issues. In my experience, estate lawyers and tenant lawyers are two different animals.

Finally, you mention this at the end, that this might be a rent control unit from the 1960's, not rent stabilized, and that is an entirely different situation. It's common for there a) not to be a RC lease, or b) for tenants not to have those records. But you should start gathering any evidence you can find showing how long the grandmother actually lived there, ASAP.

[WestchesterRenter5]

appreciate the Long and comprehensive response. I have a few comments to add.

I think we will probably end up doing a consultation with a lawyer to determine what they think, by on this site do you mean those who have ads? Or are there lawyers that will post and respond on the website?

I also find it interesting, I thought the DHCR were the “big guns” in this type of situation, as I read that they can make determinations instead of an eviction court in this situation. I have read through the succession document on their website and my girlfriend definitely falls into that category. In addition to this, for some reason earlier this year the LL decided that my gf living here was against the lease and they would intimidate her gma and my gf for it. They sent a letter stating that we are against the lease (that my gf had to be on the lease to live here but she couldn’t be added) and that since her grandma was receiving SCRIE it was fraud and they would consider terminating the lease. After receiving these threats we started talking to the DHCR and they confirmed the land lord does not need to be told when someone moves in or out, that family members are allowed to come and go as they please with no notification. I asked about form 23.5 and he said not to send it unless requested to send it. In addition to this he told us to send a certified letter with return receipt from the grandma that is notarized saying this is her lease, her home, that her family can live here and they cannot prevent that, that my gf has lived here since august 2019. After that letter the landlord has not contacted us except to provide copies of the renewals (her parents wanted that added to the letter) and then the lease renewal that arrived a few months after. This was the last certified letter they picked up and or received for some reason, seems suspicious. We had to send a follow up letter after talking to the dhcr about the SCRIE which he said my girlfriend and her grandmother still qualified for.

The parents are in the picture but they are by no means strong in this situation and are the type of people to just take the simplest and easiest approach. They didn’t even want to respond to the earlier letter from the land lord. Her mother is the one who has kept all the ducks in a row with her grandmas lease for years and the landlords agent calls her directly and does not talk to grandma in event of any issues.

Her grandparents moved in here in 1960 or 1962, her grandfather was probably the primary tenant and then when he passed away it was moved to her grandma in 2011. I am not sure if this would fall under rent control? Because the mane at the DHCR specifically looked up the rent registration and said it was stabilized.

In addition to all of this the DHCR said the biggest issue with not notifying the LL right away is the scrie and that we cannot use the SCRIE because it is fraud at that point. This is since my Girlfriend is not the one who qualified for it and it is on the basis of her grandmother. That is why he said we need to inform them with the next payment and tel them my gf will be paying the rent from now on and to remove the scrie and that we would pay the base rents and claim succession.

We are also fully aware that my gf will have to do all of the talking and communication, it is something she is a little scared of but willing to do and we plan on doing everything via the mail, however it doesn’t appear as though it could be certified because other never pick up their letters. Is email an appropriate form of communication? And would that be admissible in a court?

Also since my gf and I have never looked for a lawyer before how can you determine what they know about specific laws? As in how can I figure out how much they would know about Westchester resent stabilization laws vs just NYC? I did a google search and it seemed like there aren’t many in our area and that they say “landlord-tenant lawyer” but upon closer look they have other items on their websites that are primarily from the landlords view.

[WestchesterRenter5]

Sorry for double posting but I have a few more comments;

1 it is important to note that the building was built in the 60’s and her grandparents were the first people to occupy this apartment. I saw on google rent controlled apartments are to do with being built in the 40’s.
2. The landlord (management company) has been known by all tenants in the building to send threatening letters and it appears as some sort of game, her grandmother mentioned that the letter was BS (her words) and they were just trying to get her out. My girlfriends mother said the management company is always sending something claiming some issue but nothing has happened yet.
3. The management lady for this building is known by everyone in this building to be a complete b$@#.
4. The same management company has also sent multiple offers over the years to buy her grandma out and provide a monetary incentive for her leaving the apartment. In addition to this the unit above the one we are in is currently renting at 2k a month and is exactly the same as ours. (They did minor renovations to improve the look when the previous tenant moved out.) so they appear to have quite the motivation to get us out and someone new in because that is more than double what we are paying.

[TenantNet]

There are occasional attorneys on this forum, but they usually don't identify themselves as such. And none from Westchester as far as I know. Occasionally we will see referral requests for tenant attorneys beyond NYC - if we see any of those, we'll let you know.

But immediately, you probably need to figure out what to do about a lease renewal, if anything, and what to do about rent. I'm assuming you aren't in rent arrears due to Covid or other reasons.

If the GF is very low income, she might qualify for legal aid or legal services. Also, I briefly touched on this, if there are other family members that might have some claim on the estate or the tenancy, then that needs to be addressed. Best if there's a will, and a designated executor to the estate, otherwise you might have to go through probate.

DHCR can make succession decisions, and so can the courts. Which forum you choose depends on many factors.

You say the LL was intimidating the GF for living there ..,. obviously they don't want someone making succession claims. When things like that happen, document everything (keep a dairy) as some actions by LL might be illegal. In general the tenant may have family members (or even non-family members) living there as occupants (not on the lease). That's the Roommate Law. Search for it on the site.

SCRIE is different altogether. When applying for SCRIE, tenants are supposed to report household income, so that would include the income from the GF and from you. Try to get beyond all that, but be careful. I can't say for certain (remember Wchester rules might differ), but misreporting on a SCRIE application might get the tenant removed or barred from SCRIE, but I don't think the LL can terminate on that basis. (if that heats up, check with an attorney, and consider making corrections on SCRIE applications). It might impact the payable rent, but it would take that issue off the table.

With the parents, I can understand not looking for a fight, but if there is one, you should not back down either. Get copies of everything the mother has sent or received over the years.

If RC, in many cases there are no beginning leases. At least in NYC, tenants' leases become statutory. Both grandparents would have been considered tenants.

If DHCR said it was stabilized, that probably calls for more research. Get a rent history from DHCR going back to 1984 or as far as they have them. Also ask for the "Rent Control Cards" going back as far as they have them. You should try to find out if the grandparents were originally rent control, what might have happened to change it to rent stab (if that actually happened).

The person you're speaking with at DHCR is probably just a customer service person. They do not make determinations when and if a case if filed. They are just telling you what is on their computer.

As for what you said above about SCRIE, there might be a point, but again, I would get a legal consult first. Whichever you do, later on, once this is all resolved, you can find out from the county SCRIE department if the LL continued to take SCRIE tax abatements. Now that could be fraud. Still at this point, it's not about that; it's about getting the succession sorted out. But be prepared to pay the full legal rent without the SCRIE abatement.

In our view, it doesn't matter if they don't pick up the cert. letters. What matters is that you sent them. Of course keep copies and receipts of the money you spent at the USPS to send the certified, and tracking info.

If important, you can also send copies using Certificate of Mailing (different from Certified Mail) and also regular mail ... and even email (but not just email). As you move forward, any action you take should be done with the understanding that it may be evidence in court some day.

As for attorneys, you can get referrals. You can ask other tenants, you can ask Legal Aid, you can ask the county Bar Association. In the end, ask them for examples of cases they have handled (i.e., court decisions). You can research them online. Lawyers should not promise that they will win; they should promise they will try. They should have clear statements as to their fee structure and retainers. Some lawyers go off and do things without notifying clients. You want to know everything a lawyer does and get copies of all letters and documents. You don't want to be a back-seat driver, but you want to know what is happening.

[TenantNet]

As for the age of the building, normally RC is for units in buildings built prior to 1947, so if RS, that might be the reason for that. Either way, it needs to be clarified. There are differences between RC and RS, with some changes in 2019 making it less onerous for RC tenants. Still, look for documents entitled "Maximum Base Rent" and "Maximum Collectible Rent." Look for fuel surcharges, usually only applicable for RC except (in NYC) for a very few years for RS tenants. Look for renewal leases over the years.

Yes, LLs play games of intimidation. Is there a tenants association in the building? They might know things.

The building staff will probably find out soon enough as to the grandmother's passing. If they say anything, just thank them for their condolences and say nothing else. But document what they say.

Also, yes, LLs will try to buy out tenants and your GF may get an offer. First, they will low-ball any offer just to test the waters. Second, where else will you find a RC/RS unit at the presumably low rent now being charged (even w/o the SCRIE benefit)? Unless the LL wants to construct a luxury tower, almost all buy-out offers will be way too low. If she wants to keep living there, then don't entertain any such offers.

Are there vacant units next door to the unit? These days deregulation is gone and one of the very few ways for LLs to legally deregulate units is to combine two empty apartments. Maybe the LL will be pressuring the next-door tenants. Keep an eye out what is happening in the building. Talk to neighbors.

[TenantNet]

We took a look at a private listserv for tenant attorneys. These names came up. We do not know any of these lawyers, so these are not recommendations in any way.

Estate attorney - Jeffrey Abrandt
https://www.seniorlaw.com/goldfarb-abra ... y-abrandt/
Seems he has a history with Legal Aid and a background in housing.

His office is listed in NYC, but the name was mentioned in reply to a question for "Trusts & Estates Lawyer in Westchester?" -- so see if they practice up there, or they might also have referrals.

Also, James Fishman said he has done some Westchester cases. He's a NYC tenant attorney, and advertises on this side (click on his ad to go to his website).

One person mentioned John Allen in Larchmont, but they also says he works for both sides.
They said his email is jallenesq@gmail.com -- but we have no other information on him.

[WestchesterRenter5]

Thank you for the further response, I will present all this information to my girlfriend and se what she wants to do. We will probably also consult her parents about this and then go from there.

There is no other interested parties or parties with interest, her will was never updated and everything went to her mother, her mother has not lived here since she was a kid and is not going to prevent us from succeeding the lease.

We have the current knowledge about the base rent, and we have photocopy of the signed lease renewal that was sent to the landlord, so we are well aware of the base rent in this apartment.

There is a vacant unit next door that they are renovating as we speak, the lady passed away as well and she had no family living with her. There was also a unit next to that one that was vacated in that same week. They did not combine the units. they rented one and the other one is undergoing repairs or refurbishing.

This building is a non-evictive co op so not everyone is a tenant and i am not aware of a tenants association by any means. We are in a cluster of buildings owned by the same company.

I will now send the letters twice, once as a certified letter and another copy that is sent via certificate of mailing, it might be a pain for me but I see it as the smart way to go in this.

What would the recommendation be to do upon the rent coming due? it usually is delivered on the 1st of every month through the mail. Should we follow what the DHCR rep told us? I cant imagine we will be able to get in touch with a lawyer and "vet" them by this due date. I assume we will be forced to start with the letter that the DHCR rep told us to send and then maybe seek counsel afterwards.


It is rough because the people who live in this building aren't very friendly, they are neighborly but everyone keeps to themselves and we do not know many people. I believe the original group of people have started to pass away as many of these tenants were all known by her grandmother and had lived here for decades but it appears as though there is a shift in the age group that lives here. I am not sure if we might know someone who was able to succeed a lease and I would have tot talk to her mother to determine if anyone we know has.

I don't think at this point we would even entertain a buyout offer unless it will allow us to obtain a down payment on a viable alternative. We both like this area but know this is not our forever home and plan on moving in the future.

We are not behind on rent and make the payments as soon as the rent bill comes in, and plan on continuing to do so. I feel as though they have a hard enough time evicting non paying tenants so a paying one would be even harder to evict.

Ina addition to this, I have kept a record of all the check numbers for the payment, i have kept record of all the letters received by the landlord, I have not kept the envelopes so i wills tart doing this. In addition I have kept all the postal receipts and tracking numbers and attached them to photocopies of the letters we have sent the landlord once the "intimidation" began. The one thing that stopped the intimidation in its tracks was the notarized letter and saying that we were in talks with the DHCR.

This is a very large landlord and property management group. There are 5 co-op buildings in the area we are in all managed by the same company, by my estimate there are 60 units at least in each building but the others are twice our size. I assume they will try to intimidate and get you to leave but I'm not sure what they will do if you actually put up a fight, I assume they are pretty bus y with everything else going on.

I know it docent work this way but I wish I could just have a conversation with the landlord and inform them we do not plan on living here forever and saying we would be here for another 5 years would be pushing the envelope of what ideas we have for the rest of our lives. I was telling my GF that honestly id be willing to pay more money to live here and id be open toa 20% increase just to avoid all issue and get the succession to go smoother, this apartment is ridiculously cheap and I am aware and wouldn't mind paying slightly more to avoid all the headaches. My friend is renting a rent stabilized 1 bedroom that he managed to find earlier this year for more than we pay for our 2 bedroom that is at least 1.5 times the size.

[TenantNet]

Time to make the posts shorter

Be careful about the estate. If all property was left to mother, the lease can be considered as a property interest. How that gets from A to B (the GF) is for an attorney to solve. And be careful about tax consequences.

They can still combine things. Don't dismiss that.

Now you tell us it's a coop? How about leaving out something important. Was it converted? Was gramma in occupancy prior to conversion? Do you have the black book? Who owns the shares? A lot more questions.

If you send rent signed by the granddaughter (GD) the LL would likely reject it. She's not a tenant (yet). If that occurs, keep the check and do not do anything with the money in the bank. Do not forge the grandmother's signature. On all checks from now on, "earmark" them. In the memo write "rent for apartment #__, address, for month of April 2022." By law then the LL must apply it to that month and no other month.

DO NOT talk to the LL like that. This is NY, not Iowa. Civil? yes, Giving away your intentions hoping they will be decent? Don't be deluded.

Do NOT agree to something like a 20% increase. Actually that would be illegal for either party to negotiate outside of the legal rent. And you can't compare one RS unit to another. Rents go at their own individual pace, not by size.

[WestchesterRenter5]

Very interesting; Yes GMA moved in in the 1960's and the building was still being built. At some point it was converted to a non evictive co-op. Sadly the person who knows msot of the information is no longer with us. GMA was in the apartment before it was converted and she remained a tenant.

From what she used to say when she looked at the apartment she was able to either pruchase it out right or become a tenant and they became tenants while others in the building decided to purchase. I am not sure when it became a co op or anything like that. We have absolutely no documents on the building or the lease other than the last few renewals. Her grandma was not the best at keeping documents in order. There was a wicker basket with quite a bit in it and then the rest was shredded.

I do not know the answers to any of those questions, i do not know where to gather that information either. The women at the management office have not been very willing to allow my GF to do very much. I am not sure where we would get those answers.

Understood thatt his would nto be allowed and I was just spitballing in order to avoid all of the legal issues. But it makes sense that a 20% increase wouldnt be allowed.

In addition tot his we will do that with the checks. If it is useful or recommended the account that was used to pay the rent was shared with her mother as in it is a joint bank account. Technically her mother would be able to sign the check but I assume that would be an issue in itself the same way a check from my GF would be.

[TenantNet]

Check with the NYS Attorney General's office to see if they have any records of the conversion, including the Black Book. Someone owns the unit, either a purchase or the sponsor. The rent bill might tell you. You can also look at county records to look at deeds and other ownership data. Also look at the county real estate tax records.

I think you need to sort out the estate issues (including who controls the checking account) ASAP. Chances are money and property would go to the mother. The leasehold could go to the granddaughter, but the mother will likely have a say in the matter.

[WestchesterRenter5]

Okay, I have made some headway.

I am not sure I understand what a co-op is but I have discovered the black book and more information about the apartment we are occupying online. It appeasers as though it was co-op in 1982 and there is a very long document discussing costs and so on.

In addition to that the most recent amendment posted in 2020 shows that the apartment we occupy is one that has unsold shares consisting of the entire units share value? if that makes any sense.

What does this mean? we have an apartment with unsold shares.

Can I just buy the unsold shares for just my apartment and poof won the apartment? is that even possible?

Also important to note, in the most recent amendments, by holding the leases of the original unsold apartments compared to the maintenance costs, they are still turning a profit month over month. That is based on the rents payable according to the amendment and the maintenance costs they are required to pay.

*edit: I actually believe a third-party company holds all the unsold shares to the apartment. But my question still stands, is it possible to purchase the shares and live in the apartment?

[TenantNet]

A Black Book is a "prospectus" that describes the offering at the beginning of the conversion plan. There are hundreds - probably more - websites that describe cooping and all of this stuff. I just Googled "NYS coop black book" and a long list comes up.

Do not confuse co-ops with condominiums as they are different things legally, even though they might look alike on the surface. In a coop, a purchaser buys shares of a corporation and has a lease for the unit. So technically the purchaser is the tenant and you (non-purchasing occupant) would be the subtenant.

If you were in occupancy prior to the conversion, you could have chosen to buy, or if not, you had a right to remain as a tenant. So there might be a person who bought the unit (technically the shares) or if unbought, then it would still be owned by the sponsor.

You should be able to get the black book from the NYS Attorney General's office.

So chances are the sponsor (or any legal successor) still owns your apartment. You, as a sub-tenant, pay rent to them.

I do not know how buying unsold shares would work at this time (we do not deal with cooping or condos). But a good lawyer should know - and you would want an attorney for negotiating and closing. I would think that, if they are for sale, the cost would be MUCH higher than they cost back in 1962.

You would also want the services of an architect or engineer to see what works and what doesn't. After 60 years, the plumbing might be shot and need to be upgraded. So think this would be a major investment with a mortgage and so on. If you moved and continued to own, then you could rent it out subject to the coops' rules, and then you would be the landlord with all the rights and responsibilities of any landlord.

So if you have a huge chunk of money or are a Wall Street millennial (if the latter, then we hate you), look into it. Otherwise stick with Plan A - which is why you are here.

[WestchesterRenter5]

I assure you I am not mr moneybags otherwise that would probably be my username.

In the booklet I see what the unit could have been bought for by her grandmother and I’m wishing I had a time machine. In the other amendments it lists the new share price which you are correct is significantly higher than the original offered to the tenant in 82.

You are correct, back to the beginning. What is the information that can help me that I am able to retrieve from the booklet? I have looked through the digitized books and amendments and confirm the sponsor still holds the unit we are living in as unsold shares.

You previously said I should find it, which I did by following your advice and looking on the attorney generals site. Now in general how can the information in this book and amendments be used to help me with succession?

[TenantNet]

I wasn't suggesting that you might find a smoking gun, although that's been known to happen. It gives you a wide understanding of the ownership and history of the building. Now in 60 years, there are other things that might have happened. Be a sleuth.

One thing this should be able to give you is the name of the actual owner (or check the West Co. real estate databases). You can find out what other buildings they might own, if they frequently litigate with tenants, if they oppose succession, on what grounds (what is their game plan) and who they use at their attorneys for tenant issues. If big enough, they will use other attorneys for tax issues. From each piece of evidence you get, that leads you to another, and in the end you can tell a story. All that can help you deal with the succession issue.