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Need to know if there's precedent for Tenant vs. Tenant

NYC Housing Court Practice/Procedures

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Need to know if there's precedent for Tenant vs. Tenant

Postby Pbot » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:56 pm

I live in a co-op which I do NOT own, and I have an upstairs neighbor who is harassing me w/noise. (She has two apts combined into 1 upstairs, and has harassed my next door neighbor for the last 3 years as it turns out. Bith my neighbor and I have, separately, tried to discuss it with her, but she's insane.)

I would like to take my upstairs neighbor to small claims court, suing for 4 mos. of rent, but I need previous cases like this so that I can say to the judge or arbitrator that there's precedent for it.

Further info if you're curious:
See, my co-op owners tried to get management to do something, but management refused. When I sent my owners a letter stating I would withhold rent (at their request actually), they told Management "Look, you're causing problems by not handling this." Management not only refused but threatened my landlords with housing court (for what, I'm not really clear on, but my landlords are clearly in fear of this).

Problem is, I'm still being tortured by the upstairs neighbor. I have TWO neighbors who've heard the noise (only one of whom lives under Crazy Neighbor as I do) and both have complained to management and they're both giving me notarized letters stating that the noise is disruptive and that they've called management.

Management also doesn't like me b/c I've repeated called HPD, forcing them to turn on the heat, and the health dept., who fined them for not handling the mouse and cockroach problem. They've told the super NOT to fix anything in my apt. if I have any problems. And the super's happy to oblige, b/c he doesn't like doing ANYthing.
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Postby TenantNet » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:04 pm

You don't need precedents. You need your LL to push the coop board and sue them if there's no relief.
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Easier said than done

Postby Pbot » Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:33 pm

Thanks for the reply but, I do need precedent....

Sure, I can go to court w/my landlords, and I am confident that I would win.

But I think if my upstairs neighbor received the form that she was being sued, she might stop immediately rather than MAYBE stop in 3 mos. from now.

I went to a pro se attorney at Civil Court who told me I "have the right to withhold rent" based on the info I gave him and the fact I've "been doing everything by the book."

While I can do withhodl rent and go to court w/the LL, I think small claims is also a viable, perhaps faster, option. For that, the pro se attorney said I'd better have proof of precedent, otherwise "the judge will probably tell you it's not her [the neighbor's] responsibility but the responsibility of the landlords and management."

THUS, I'm looking for precedent. If you know of someone on these boards that has sued a noisy neighbor directly, please point me towards them. Thanks again!
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Postby TenantNet » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:45 pm

Small claims is for money, i.e., "claims."

You are seeking to have the offending behavior stop. Withholding rent will likely get you into housing court, where you could assert a defense of nuisance and warranty of habitability. Document the conditions. Get proof and affidavits.

No need to get caught up in precedents. Stick to the facts.
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Postby Pbot » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:43 pm

Thanks!

I see your point. Like you said, small claims is for "claims," so I would sue her (upstairs neighbor) for my rent for purposefully making my place inhabitable...but, for that, I DO need precedent.

My hope is that this would be a quicker fix as I won't be withholding rent until January...then my LLs have to take me to court, then we have to GO to court...all in all, quiet is 3 mos. away if it comes at all. sigh.

And I will have two affidavits from neighbors. (This lady above is SO loud someone who doesn't even live directly under her hears the noise.)
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Postby TenantNet » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:58 pm

Why are you caught up in this need for a precedent? There are millions of precedents. Precedents are argued in appeals and memorandums of law. You need facts and strategy.

As I said, get documentation. What is this person doing? "Playing a stereo at 3 AM" is a fact (assuming it's true). "Creating a nuisance" is a conclusion, or grounds used as a basis to take action.

You tell your LL the facts and demand he gets it fixed. His remedy is to deal with the coop board. You have no legal relationship with the board or neighbor. It's your LL's responsibility. He needs to press the board, and potentially sue them. They can deal with the bad neighbor, or his/her landlord.
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Postby Pbot » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:42 pm

TenantNet wrote:Why are you caught up in this need for a precedent? There are millions of precedents. Precedents are argued in appeals and memorandums of law. You need facts and strategy.


I'm only caught up in it b/c
a) this pro se attorney said small claims may be an option if I can find precedent (he did state that Supreme Court is a more viable option, but I cannot afford an attorney)
and
b) the LL doesn't want to do anything and, if they do decide to, as said, their actions will only occur after they take me to court (I get the feeling that they're honestly afraid of the Management Company [who also makes up most of the power on the co-op board apparently], and I think it's b/c they didn't follow proper procedure for getting me into this apt. -- no board approval, BG check, etc. They just thought I seemed nice...which I am.)

As I said, get documentation. What is this person doing? "Playing a stereo at 3 AM" is a fact (assuming it's true). "Creating a nuisance" is a conclusion, or grounds used as a basis to take action.

You tell your LL the facts and demand he gets it fixed. His remedy is to deal with the coop board. You have no legal relationship with the board or neighbor. It's your LL's responsibility. He needs to press the board, and potentially sue them. They can deal with the bad neighbor, or his/her landlord.


Yessir (assuming you're a sir)! I have done this.
- I keep a diary of the noise, including the information of the many times I've called the police (and when they have and have not shown up)
- Two neighbors have written letters that have been notarized, where they state they too have heard the noise, that they too suffer from it and that they too have called management to complain.
- I keep note of any time the heat goes off and write down the reference #s from 311
- And I've taken pictures of the 2 mice I've caught in my no-kill traps (and plan to get a copy of the information from the Health Dept. who came out and cited the building).
- ANNND I've told the LL about all of this...

And, yet, yesterday, in an e-mail I was told: "If you do not pay January's rent, we will begin eviction proceedings."

Could be just bluster, but it still does not help me with the noise. That is, again, my LL compelling management to handle the problem is at least several months away.

Still open to other thoughts from you. Thanks for explaining it all to me BTW...and thanks for this site in general.
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Postby lofter1 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:59 pm

Seems the pro se attorney is thinking like a lawyer: money being the only issue of interest.

You'd be a very lucky person to get a monetary award in a case such as you describe.
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Postby TenantNet » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:39 pm

Lofter, I assume you're being sarcastic.
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Noisey Neighbor

Postby Emeraldstar » Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:12 am

Hi All
Pbot, if you do find what your looking for please share it.
Just a share for knowledge: When my upstairs neighbor got wind that I was going to record then & only then did the midnight & beyond activities cease. I had followed the same procedures your doing & also sustained an injury during a confrontation. Over a 3 month period, 37 calls bet. 911 & quality of life too. All of which did nothing to cease the situation. NYPD got involved, the neighbors disappeared for a couple of months, by then the officer on the case retired and I was back to square one. With held rent, went to court & nothing changed. That is why I had suggested you do something more tangiable to support yourself. In my experience recording was the catalyst of change. I hope you have better luck than I did but don't waste too much time thinking anyone helps without facts.
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Postby Pbot » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:38 am

lofter1 wrote:Seems the pro se attorney is thinking like a lawyer: money being the only issue of interest.

You'd be a very lucky person to get a monetary award in a case such as you describe.


:efterm you're referring to a Tenant v. Tenant cased as opposed to Tenant v. LL, yes? If so: Hence my request for precedent!
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Re: Noisey Neighbor

Postby Pbot » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:48 am

Emeraldstar wrote:Hi All
Pbot, if you do find what your looking for please share it.
Just a share for knowledge: When my upstairs neighbor got wind that I was going to record.


You mean record the noise? I've done that. The problem is: I'm dealing with someone who is completely irrational.

Example: when I FIRST met this upstairs neighbor, it was the day after I moved in. We had a very nice conversation: I explained, apologetically, I'm hearing a lot of noise. SHE was very apologetic in return, told me she "understands" and hates "to bother anyone" and continued to tell me she empathizes and doesn't "want to be 'the bad neighbor.'"

So she told me a story: Her other downstairs neighbor (my next door neighbor) once came up and yelled at her "Can you stop walking on your treadmill late at night!" So Upstairs Woman said back: "Lady, I don't have a treadmill! Do you want to come in and inspect the place?" The old lady did not and walked off.

So I, hearing this story, said "Wow, that lady must be crazy!" And, with that, Upstairs Woman invited me in for some coffee. She brings me to her living room and not 6 feet away from me is A TREADMILL!

So I said "Um, isn't THAT a treadmill?" She: "Well, yeah, but it's not an automatic one." Riiiiight, b/c THAT makes a difference.

So, not only did she lie to the other neighbor, but she actually told ME the story WITH the lie and then invited me in to SEE that she was lying. But, I'll tell you, she HONESTLY believed she was in the right in that story...you could see the earnestness on her face. And I knew right then: she's gonna be a problem.

You can't be rational with irrational people.
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Postby TenantNet » Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:02 am

Pbot, you are going to get nowhere because you're looking to sue someone in small claims court to stop bad behavior, and that can't be done, You can try, but it won't happen.

First, small claims is generally informal and meant to be so. So-called "precedents" are cases that are cited in memoranda of law or appeals, not small claims. Occasionally you might see that in oral arguments, but that's based on a motion or something like that. Even in higher courts, judges ignore precedents thousands of times per day.

You're hung up on something because someone used a three syllable word. For the last time, get off it. (and I mean that)

If you want to stop the bad behavior, and assuming you can't get the police to do it wither through a nuisance or harassment complaint, then you need to pressure your LL to do it. You have a legal relationship with your landlord. The LL can deal with the board.

Alternatively there are other options if appropriate, i.e., suing someone for defamation, or a tort claim. These would be in Civil or Supreme Court. If you took those avenues, you should get a lawyer and let the lawyer worry over precedents.
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Postby Pbot » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:04 am

get off it. (and I mean that)

If you want to stop the bad behavior, and assuming you can't get the police to do it wither through a nuisance or harassment complaint, then you need to pressure your LL to do it. You have a legal relationship with your landlord. The LL can deal with the board.


OK. Got it.

Thanks!!

p.s. re: the comment about "someone used a three syllable word": no need to be insulting. I express myself quite clearly and intelligently and, as a matter of fact, do so in writing, and in person, for a living (such as it is), so there is no need to stoop to insulting one's intelligence. While I'm appreciative of the help, that sort of commentary should have no place in this forum, at your very own site.
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Postby TenantNet » Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:51 am

Perhaps it's sunk in now, but it wasn't. Sorry if you're offended, but it was entirely appropriate.

Look, I understand the situation. We've all been through something similar. And in looking for a solution, someone -- who may appear to be in authority -- says something that appears to make sense. But while they mentioned "you need a precedent" and perhaps it was off-the-cuff, they more than likely didn't go into an explanation of why. Perhaps it was in a different context.

But you were latched on to the "need" for a precedent, and weren't letting go. So yes, telling you to "get off it" is MORE than appropriate.

If this person is selling drugs out of their apartments or something illegal, then call the police. If they're violating the non-criminal law, then call 311. If they are physically threatening you, call the police and consider getting an order of protection.

If they're doing something else that's non-criminal, you need to press your landlord. And if your LL fails to take action, one remedy is to withhold rent, at which time your LL could take you to court, or might be pressed to go to the board. The board has the power to deal with the other tenant or the owner of the other tenant's unit.

There might be other options, but AFAIK those are the most direct. What you need to do is fully document the offending behavior and make certain your LL is fully put on notice.
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