withheld security deposit

[mjr203]

me again, tenants do not have to give 30 days notice to end a M-T-M tenancy. LL's do.

I'd just document all of this nonsense and take the LL/manager to small claims. If you're worried about trumped up charges of damage, just bring all the documentation you have about the apartments condition. In court itself, if she doesn't have a receipt and good evidence, she probably won't get the $ for it.

[mjr203]

ok and I'm saying that a month-to-month tenancy requires NO notice on the part of a tenant to break. I think that a court will see the 4 days as a late departure from an already announced departure. They may or may not decide that the LL can keep the 4 day prorated part of the security deposit. But I just can't imagine that this tenant will be on the hook for another month.

The law [(Real Property Law §232-a)] states that for unreg. tenants that "In New York City, the landlord must serve the tenant with a written termination giving 30 days notice before the expiration of the term." It says nothing about tenant notice.

<small>[ April 23, 2003, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: pointerout ]</small>

[jgperras]

Okay, I'm back after a wild morning.

Came into work to find an email from K (management) saying that we left the apartment uncleaned and that late return of the keys prohibited her from renting it, thus we forfeit the deposit.

There's good and bad here.

Bad - we cleaned the place top to bottom and it was spotless. But we don't have any proof of this. Second, as "me again" pointed out, my friend, H, never did sign the lease although she'd mailed a $6000 check covering 2 mos. rent + security deposit to hold the property.

Good - because K said it was not cleaned but said nothing about damage or anything else, I don't think that she can keep the entire deposit - only the amount needed to cover cleaning expenses (mythical, because again the place was spotless). She CC'ed the landlords on the email, so she can't change her story now. I think she sort of painted herself into a corner with that as she's now on record with only a couple of minor complaints.

Re: late return of the key - When H told me (and K verified) that the apt. was off the market, K never said anything about losing the deposit when I told her that I'd get the keys to her in a couple of days. Obviously I wasn't going to jeopardize $2,100 just to take 5 extra days to finish cleaning--I'd rather have pulled an all-nighter and gotten it done. So if everyone agrees that to the best of my knowledge the apartment was off the market and I was okay to take the extra time, doesn't that render the fact that H later backed out and the apt is still vacant irrelevant?

Re: lease terms - nothing in my lease or lease rider discusses late return of keys. Which is why I don't believe that, if this makes it to court, she's got much of a case. Nothing in ink supports her assertion.

Again, thoughts? Comments?

[jgperras]

Quick addendum:

I've got emails coming to me from H that show K offered the apartment at a certain date/rate, then pulled it back, then re-offered it at a lower rent for an earlier date. I think if offered to the landlords they'll see that K delayed, lost the deal and then had to cover her ass.

Further, I've got letters of support coming from other tenants who saw the apartment cleaned the day that we turned in the keys that will vouch for its condition (though still no photographic evidence).

Finally, with my excellent relationship with the landlords over the last 3 years, that might count for something in their eyes which leads me to the question I should have asked earlier?

Q: Because the deposit technically belongs to the landlords to cover damages, cleaning, etc., can they compel K to turn it over back to me even if she disagrees? It isn't her money to cover lost rent, correct? What is the landlords' role and standing in the process?

[mjr203]

that money is yours. it is up to the LL and their managing agent to return it less fees for damages/back rent.

The letters are a good idea from other tenants. This is why it is always a good idea to photograph before leaving.

The whole thing sounds like a bit of a mixup but it is my opinion that the burden of renting the apartment is not on your head.

let us know how it works out, esp. on the prorating issue.

[Chimera]

Re: lease terms - nothing in my lease or lease rider discusses late return of keys. Which is why I don't believe that, if this makes it to court, she's got much of a case. Nothing in ink supports her assertion.

If you turned the keys over after the date your lease ended, you are still considered to have possession of the apartment. The courts aren't going to care that you "thought" the apartment was off the market, what is more important is your contractual obligation to return possession of the apartment (keys) at the end of your lease. Whether or not they can withhold your entire deposit for 5 days is another story. Is it written in your lease that you forfeit an entire month if you holdover?

[jgperras]

If anyone still cares about this thread....

It's gotten interesting. I'm now negotiating directly with my landlord, with whom I have a great relationship, because he's fired the manager (with whom I had the dispute).

Turns out that she pulled the same garbage with another tenant. And from what the landlord has learned, the manager was deliberately trying to empty the building, causing the landlord to lose a ton of money to force the sale of the building (which he'd considered selling before), presumably so that she would get the contract and a huge fee (brownstone, would list for about $1.1 million). So she's gone now, and hopefully out of business soon.

Feel free to add a coda of your own if you're all still lurking.